Good Morning, Podcasters!
Good Morning, Podcasters!

Episode 37 · 2 months ago

Guest Episode [Dave Jackson Interviews Tanner Campbell]


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Good Morning Podcasters, I'm here again. Oh my God, Hey, how are you? Good Morning. Today I'm not gonna do an episode at all. I'm going to phone it in to my friend Dave Jackson, who interviewed me earlier in the week, and you're going to hear that interview up next. Like I said, no formal good morning podcasters episode today. Instead, we're featuring, or rather I'm featuring the royal. We are featuring an episode of Dave Jackson's School of podcasting where he interviews me and talks about podcast advertising within podcast player APPs. Dave wouldn't tell you this, but I'm going to tell you this. When I gave this interview I was half in the bag. So let's play a game. You tell me how many times during the interview you can tell I had had an entire bottle of Spanish red. I think I did a pretty good job, but you know, it's always fun to know what other people think. Thanks for the interview, Dave. Here it is a little later on I'm gonna talk about podcast movement, which is gonna bring up the topic of dialogue. And what's fun is today I've got an interview with Tanner Campbell and when this guy first came on the scene, he drove me nuts, he really did. I was like wait, what, because he was thinking way outside the box and at one point we kind of wait at each other like cats on twitter, and then we met at podcast movement and actually had a dialogue like this is why I think what I think. Oh, this is what you think, and it's kind of interesting because we both still agree to disagree. There's gonna be some things I say and he's gonna be like what. In fact, we had a lot of fun at podcast movement arguing. It was a phenomenal discussion and I love it because he was very passionate about his side and I was like Nah, I can't do that, because if you know spotify has all the power, then they can kick you out and there's nothing you can do. Is this great conversation, and so in the process of listening to his show, good morning podcasters, he got a couple other shows will be talking about here that I was like, well, this guy's actually been spending a lot of money advertising a show, and I realized that a lot of us now are looking at one way to grow our audience is to spend money to run ads on other podcasts, and in this case we're talking about APPS, not so much like an audio add but they put up little banners in the applications. Is What Tanner is talking about here. So if this is something you're interested in, here is my talk with the one and only Tanner Campbell. I'm one of those people that thinks that most of us, all of us, have things in common, and then we have one percent of things that we viscerally disagree about and we focus on that one percent and ignore everything else that makes us similar. It's the real pain. Yes, there we go, but that is the voice of one Tanner Campbell. You can find him at tanner helps dot com. And I keep hearing you say these things and I was like, we need to organize these. You've probably done this anywhere, but you've advertised or tried many different advertising systems and a lot of people are like o. The way to grow your show is two basically. I call it following the movie strategy because, you think about it, movies spend boatloads of money to advertise on all sorts of stuff. They try to get you in the theater so that you will then tell a friend to come see it, and so that's what people are doing. They're like, look, I can't get my audience to find me, so I'M gonna put my ad in front of wherever they are and hope then that that will then spur the word of mouth kind of thing. And I was like, let's get tanner on, because you've played with a ton of these who should be running ads for their podcast. Is there somebody who shouldn't? No, I think everybody should. But here's the thing. C P A. I want to make sure that I define that. So C P as cost per acquisition, and that means how much it costs you to get a subscriber. In this case, if it costs you a dollar ninety to get a subscriber, which is what I commonly get across platforms, I mean a dollar nine person. You want to grow a thousand people, I mean what's a dollar ninety times thousand? It's a...

...significant amount of money. If you don't have some kind of structure built around your podcast, a business structure built around your podcast, doesn't make a lot of sense to spend that money to get those listeners. So I think everyone should spend money to get listeners for their podcast, because I think it's one of the only ways to avoid burnout within the first year before organic kicks in, if you even have a website, if you're even paying attention to organic, if you have an organic strategy, which sadly a lot of podcasters do not, which I know you've talked a lot about, it's going to keep you from burning out. But my advice is, while everybody should do it, everybody should have some kind of business structure around their podcast, because it's hard to justify that one fifty to two fifty acquisition costs if you don't have a way to earn the money back. That's my whole thing. When people talk about this, and Michael, okay, so it's a business or a hobby, and I realized hobby is some people see that real negative. So is it a passion project or whatever? In other words. And so, musist, you're a podcast enthusiast. Enthusiast, I like that one. Yeah, so when I was a musician I spent hundreds of dollars on guitars and stuff and I would then make it back a hundred dollars a weekend. But I was having a blast, it was a good time, so I didn't mind it. So that's if that's you, if you're an enthusiast and you don't mind spending a couple of hundred bucks here and a couple hundred bucks there because you're having a great time, then fine, but just have that expectation that, okay, this is gonna cost you some money and you're gonna get paid in fun. I'd like to get paid in fun. Yeah, Fun doesn't pay my other bills, but I don't mind a lot of fun here and there. Yeah, so I think spotify has a deal that you can they do. So spotify has, and I would call it an emerging ads platform. Now I'm only going to call it an emerging ads platform because I'm a podcaster trying to go grow podcasts. But I gave up on it because they do have this ability to advertise on podcasts. You can do that. However, you have to provide the copy to the spotify crew and they create the ad for you and then they'll put it on the podcast and the advertisement cannot be for a podcast. This is true four months ago. I haven't been back since they told me that, because I thought what we really want is for a podcast to be able to advertise. A podcast specifically within the same category, because we want to be able to get in front of an audience we already know it's gonna like us. But spotify currently, unless something has changed in the last four months, doesn't allow you to do that. It will only allow brands to do it. They cannot be podcasts and they have to allow the spotify team to create the AD. So I could have an ad for the school of podcasting as a business, but not the school of podcasting podcast. That's right, and you couldn't create it, you'd have to have them create it. Now you can get around this in a really weird way. You can say I want to run a traditional ad for a brand and your brand can be your podcast and you can target people who have recently listened to a podcast. But you can't get any more granular than that, which is outrageously annoying. So I saw that my cost per acquisition was around four dollars to seven dollars on spotify, which even I, who I have a business surrounding my podcast, I can't justify. Yeah, like it's expensive. Quick. What's the minimum bi on spotify? Who are fifty the last time I ran a campaign, so it sounds exciting until you find out that you've got all sorts of hoops to jump through and interesting. All right. Well, what's another one we should check out? Overcast. Love overcast. You can get a little bit expensive depending on what your category is, because so all of these podcast APPs, I should say, that's where we're running these ads. These are not audio ads, these are display ads within podcast player APPs. They all have a limited number, a limited amount of inventory. They're not going to flood their APP in an overwhelming way with millions of ads because that's just untenable and also, of course, they wouldn't be able to deliver that many ads. So every category, and overcast has a limited number of advertisers that can buy into that category for a thirty day period...

...and if you're in, for example, the business category, it might cost you twe for the month, but if you buy into the I think the most recent one I ran was in the fiction category. I bought in for two D fifty or three hundred and ten, I can't remember, and that's pretty affordable and I got about a dollar nine per acquisition on that. So the ad ran for a month and I saw a pretty pretty good acquisition on that. I like that a dollar ninety. That felt pretty good. I like anything less than two fifty. That's where I feel comfortable. I realized that right now your your brain might be going numbers, numbers, more, numbers, numbers. Yeah, these are gonna be in the show description at school of podcasting dot com. Slash eight, four three. And I know you have courses. Are you able to track that this customer that bought my course came from overcast or are we just happy that they clicked and subscribed? I'm happy a clicked and subscribed about the course kind of person. But I do have, of course, smart links to track where the traffic comes from. So I use a tool called switchy dot io, and so anytime I speak a link in my show or anytime I put a link in my show notes, it's a switchy link. And they actually might even have a deal right now, a lifetime deal for fifty or sixty bucks on APP sumo. That's where I got it, so I don't have to pay a monthly for it. APPSUMA is great for anybody WHO's buying staff software. It's just terrific. You can spend a lot of money on things maybe you'll never use, but talking about things that buying things you don't need and watching your budget go out the window. Yet, but it's fun to watch that budget out the window when you get cool tools. So I'll track in that way and I can see I'm only putting that switchy link in the show notes of an episode and I know that this was the referral for this purchase. And of course, once they're on my page, my pixel tracks them and so I can tell, within a reasonable amount margin of error, that they're coming from the podcast at least, and I have to make some assumptions about whether or not they came as a result of that ad or as an existing listener. But pretty much the way it works is if I can consistently grow the podcast audience, I can consistently keep new students coming into the course. I think if remember right, cast box has a deal. CAST box does. I've never actually worked with them. Ari Illness and Blatt, who, of course, everybody listens to this show, probably knows them really well, and that is a vary from what I understand. They don't have an automated process to do this. You can't go to like cast box dot com. Slash ads the way. You can go to overcast dot com slash ads to request that you run an ad on their platform or in their APP. But you have to reach out to them directly and I don't know. I've actually never run an ad on cast box, so I don't know what it costs and I don't know how effective it is, but people do, at least word of mouth. What I've heard from people is that that is a really good, really well performing platform. I've yet to run an add on it, though. All right, what's another APP that does run at? PODCAST addict does. That's one that's automated and it's a lot cheaper than overcast on the whole, but I have found also that it doesn't perform as well. It's about cheaper and performs as well, so there's some give and take there. I recently ran an ad on there, I think, for about two and fifty dollars and I got just about six for the same podcast I mentioned earlier. I got about six of the traffic I got on the overcast add for just a little bit more money. So if I were going to choose between podcast addict and overcast, I would choose overcast. But something that's important to note is that these podcast APPS. They have their own unique audiences and users. It might be true that a business podcast performs really well on player FM and maybe player FM is geared towards a business podcast audience. Maybe the largest percentage of their user base is our business people and that's what they want, and the largest percentage of overcast might be fiction podcast people, which is what I was...

...running the at him. And you have to test on these platforms to make that determination, because you might run an ad on overcast and it'll slay, absolutely kill, and then you run the same exact ad on Player FM and it will do abysmally. And the only thing you can account for is maybe these user bases are different in what they tend to like and you have to experiment to figure that out. I know in the past you used to have a video, I think, on your website, but that show people how to do facebook ads, and so obviously that's someplace that you can throw up an ad. And the thing I always gonna bout facebook ads is every time I tried to learn them, by the time I've gone through all the tutorials, they've changed their inner yeah, they are the Microsoft three sixty five of ads platforms, for sure. Only I t people will get that, but they change stuff like every six months and they don't tell you. It's annoying. Yeah, so obviously you have experience with that. What are your thoughts on Facebook ads these days? When I started selling advertising services to corporate clients, man, facebook was the way you could get so many subscribers to your show for such little money. I'm talking about like sub fifty cents, sub thirty cents a subscriber, and you have to make some assumptions about those subscribers because of course there are certain things you couldn't track. But ever since I os fourteen five and the way that facebook ads has changed, and of course, IOS fourteen five effects on the entire industry, it's gotten less lucrative, let's say. And it took me a while to admit that because I was a hard core facebook I was so good at it and I'm like no, it's slipping away from me. I'm so upset about it. It's still good for engagement, it's still good. Of course we're growing community on facebook. It's still good for sending traffic to a website and using the pixel to capture demographic data about the people who are interacting with your ads. But as far as actually growing a podcast audience, and I learned this, I learned this in a really hard way, which I won't talk about. But yeah, it's not what it used to be. So my recommendation for people now is, yeah, put a budget towards facebook ads. Maybe five dollars a day. That's pretty affordable for most people. Hunt for dollars a month and use it to drive traffic to your website. Use It to inform the Pixel that you have installed on your website so that when you one day decide to run a campaign for maybe, of course, that you're selling, which is, of course, what I do, is how I monetize my podcast. Or a special event that you're doing live, you can create an ad campaign for ticket sales or something like that using that Pixel data and that will perform really, really well. But getting someone now to click on a facebook ad and go to and the way I used to target these, if people are interested, is I create a traffic ad and I would send people specifically to the apple podcast listing for the PODCAST and I would make sure that I was only targeting people who, of course, you know, the regular ent U is that you would need for whatever podcast it was. But also you're only on an IOS device, you're only on Wifi, and the reason I would do that is because two parts. Only on Wifi because if you're traveling and you find a facebook ad, you're less inclined, by my research anyway, to interact with it. But if you're home then you're much more likely to check out something like a new podcast. And then I would limit it to IOS because if you click on an IOS ad, or rather if you click on a link that goes to apple podcasts, then on your IOS device it's going to open the APP natively. So it's a one click to click conversion funnel, which is a very short funnel, as anybody and adds would know, and so it had a very high conversion rate. But it just doesn't work as well as it used to. Stupid facebook and stupid face is Meta. Do you have a favorite? Oh yes, a budget notwithstanding, right, because it also happens to be one of the most expensive, is player FM.

So Player FM will allow you to run what they call flights and it starts at bronze and then has silver, gold and platinum, and the lowest you can do, of course, is bronze and if memory serves that's a two thousand dollar campaign that spends in two weeks. Ouch, ouch. You get about a thousand to two thousand subscribers from that, so you're averaging something like a dollar sixty per acquisition, which is the best I've seen anywhere. The other thing I wanted to ask you about is you recently somewhat pivoted your strategy around podcasting and you kind of basically said look, if you want to hear my stuff, pay me. In a nutshell, is that summarizing it pretty accurately? Kind of? Ultimately, I think functionally yes. But what I have begun to recognize about myself, and that people have been pointing out forever. You've pointed this out yourself, is that I am I'm a little bit of an abrasive personality. I probably don't sound it in this interview, but I'm very curt, I'm very direct, I don't have a lot of consideration for well, my emotions around this issue are like, I don't care, that's your own problem. I just want to tell you the things, and that has created a reality for me where a lot of people think I'm not in this to help and the thing is that those people can be bun kind and I might seem like a brick wall of emotion, but in truth I spend as much time on people who think I'm full of it mentally as I do on people who believe in me and want to work with me. And that's problematic because it means I spend a lot of time on twitter, which is like my home base. I spent a lot of time on twitter in like negative discussions, like defending points of view and like trying to bring people around, and I love it. Dave, this is you, which I bree you and me partially when somebody who doesn't like me then gets to know me and they're like, oh, wait a minute, I actually do like this guy because now I get what he's about, because I've taken in the time to invest to figure him out. And Brian Barletta actually pointed out to me once that maybe I shouldn't make it that difficult. It's kind of part of WHO I am. I am a direct person and I feel like you're going to be the best of my friends if you can take the time to invest to figure out what kind of Guy I am and then realize that I'm actually here to help and I just I think I got tired of that struggle on a day to day because you see it on twitter. It is daily. It is an onslaught of what has tanner said. Now we gotta go dog pile on him and like ten of people out of the hundred that get mad at me will be we'll get it and they've come away from and I'll feel good about getting those people, but that other ninety it's rough. So I decided to pay wall my podcast on every day except Monday, because I do it daily, and I decided to limit my twitter interactions to my private twitter group because really what I want, and what I realized about myself at podcast movement after a bit of introspection, was that I really like to feel like people are taking my advice and applying it. I don't like having to defend or prove my advice necessarily. I like people to come in and say I trust you, I like you, I feel like I know you and I'm here to listen. And maybe that's a little egotistical on my part, but that was really what motivated the move, was that I just wanted to work with a captive audience that I didn't have to argue with it. I didn't have to convince that. They knew my history and where I come from and what my expertise is. Is that a plural of expertise? Expertise, what my expertise is and you know, showed up to do work instead of showed up to argue or to make accusations. It's better for me ultimately. So it's not a money thing, it's a mental health thing, which was important. There you go. That's it. Absolutely. If it's not fun, why would you do it? And what system are you using to deliver this? I'm using super cast. I really like super cast. I was actually caught in kind of a it was a difficult position because I didn't note about the service that I had since learned since podcast movement, and that...

...was a lot of my audience. For example, my practical stoicism podcast hugely popular. It's got two hundred reviews or something on Apple podcasts. It's got thirty six reviews on spotify. Like the audiences on spotify, and I was like, all right, I want to do something to monetize this. It's been six or seven months with this podcast and I want to create an offering and I thought, well, that's going to be challenging because my audiences on spotify and spotify users. Not to take anything away from them, but if somebody is listening to podcasts on spotify, they're probably new to podcasting in general. They're not gonna know what overcast is or apple podcasts or whatever, and I thought they're probably not gonna want to try to use another APP to listen to podcasts. And you can't import RSS Feeds to spotify, or so I thought. As it turns out, supercast has some kind of special access or I don't even know what it's called, but they have some sort of special arrangement with spotify where if you subscribe to my podcast through super cast, you can in fact listen to that secure private feed through spotify. So that was the jump I made, because if it wasn't gonna be that, it was gonna be super cast. And I don't know if we have enough time to go over how much I don't like patreon. They have. They are the kings of what is it? First something advantage, first, first mover advantage. Yeah, they were the first ones. Almost the first one there was google had one called Jay Walk and right rafter. Patreon came, I was like, oh, here comes Google, and they bought it and shut it down. But that makes sense because I know when I first discovered you you were all spotify all the time. was like, we don't need R S S. spotify has everything every so that makes sense that your audience is really big on spotify because you were kind of promoting it. So a little bit of clarification there. I actually love open source. I love the idea of RSS as an individual human being who doesn't have to tell people how to make money, right, as tanner the individual. But in reality, when you're telling someone who has a pretty big, busy, stressful job as a podcast creator to create something, market something, monetize something, telling them to do it on anchor through spotify, that gives you all of these tools. It's easier to help them be successful on that than it is to say, you know what, instead, let's distribute everything through RSS and let's have you split all of your marketing attention across seventy different platforms. And if you thought this was overwhelming before, boy Oh boy, it's gonna be really overwhelming now. So it's more of like a practical approach to growth and monetization for indies. That's really what I'm here for, is to help people who really enjoy what they do and have gotten over the hurdle of money ruins art, because of course, a lot of us. I started that way. I was like making money from my art. Oh, this is the worst. I to my heart. Man. Yeah, I was there too. But as soon as people cross over that and say no, wait a minute, I'm actually creating art and value people are consuming on a Daili or weekly basis, I feel like I should get a little something out of this. So when people get to that point, I'm the guy who comes in and says, okay, Hey, this is how we're gonna do it. I know you don't like the idea of a business or INN LLC. You're making money, but that's what's gonna Happen and if you just let me ruin your life for three months, you'll be really happy in month four. There you go. Well again proving because every my whole audience right now is Oh my God, tanner just said something positive about anchor Dave's gonna blow us every my audience knows I'm not an anchor fan, and yet I'm not going to jump through the screen and punch you in the face. So you're a lot of have an opinion. Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, you should get a you should get a booth at podcast movement. Only some people will get that. I know you have obviously good morning podcasters. What are the podcast do you...

...have? I have good morning podcasters, which is, of course, like you, podcasts for podcasters. I have practical stoicism, which is for people who are interested in stoicism but think like the Dude Bro Tech, startup boardroom version of Stoicism is lame, because it is, and think that the overly traditional like we're going to do this the way we did two thousand years ago, is impractical for people who are interested in stoicism but are not in one of those two camps. It's for them to learn and get familiar with a philosophical practice that's over two thousand years old and I think is pretty swell. And then I have the dictionary of mythology and folklore, which is a daily same as my good morning podcasters. And then I have one that's about to launch on Jam Street media called mythology and folklore with tanner and Eric, which is a full storytelling experience, sound design, all the cool stuff. It's coming out in about a month, I think. And then there's a follow up between me and my host Eric where. And Eric is an art history major and Greek and Latin, and so he has an academic understanding of mythology and folklore and I have passion for storytelling understanding of mythology and folklore, and we just tear it apart and talk about what we got from it. And when I say tear it apart, I mean dissected. I don't mean we don't make fun of it, but we explore our thoughts and what we got from the story and it's one of my favorite things to do to just talk about what maybe these stories meant when they were written in Romania four hundred years ago. It's fun. It's fun. There you go all, my friend, thank you so much for sharing your experience with buying ads on places. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, man, it's been a blast. And that's it. Dave, thanks again for having me. I appreciate it. I hope all of you who listened got something out of that. I hope that you'll go and run your own paid ads within podcast player APPS. You really should be doing that if you have any kind of budget for it. And remember, be sure to send me an email, tanner at tanner helps, to let me know where you identify I had. I had had too much wine prior to that interview. Again, thanks for listening and I will see you next time. TAKE CARE OF H.

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